IRV'S SHEET: On Batteries and Power to the Grid

As you might imagine, a set of comments made Sunday at the North American International Auto Show by Katsuaki Watanabe, president of Toyota Motor Corp., received a great deal of attention, discussion and response.

Mr. Watanabe, you may recall, announced that Toyota has begun the planning for a production line for lithium-ion batteries, and we plan to have Prius Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEVs), powered by such batteries, in the hands of fleet customers by 2010, or sooner. It's just one part of Toyota's global plan to sell a million hybrids per year some time during the next decade.

One response to Mr. Watanabe’s announcement came from Jon Wellinghoff, a commissioner with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, and it showed up right here on Open Road.

Commissioner Wellinghoff commended us for "stepping up to the plate with a commitment to begin delivering PHEVs to fleet purchasers in the U.S. within the next two years. This announcement supports what many have stated regarding lithium battery technology. It is viable for use in vehicles here and now."

And he continued, "I only hope that Toyota will also take an additional step when it rolls out these vehicles to fleet purchasers - make them vehicle-to-grid capable so that the benefits and synergies of storage support for the grid can be realized by Toyota from a more valuable product, the consumer from payments back from grid operators for the provision of grid support services, and society from a more efficient electric grid."

What he’s talking about here is the ability to plug a fully-charged PHEV into the system at night and have it feed the electricity stored in its batteries back into the general electrical grid, perhaps making a little money for the owner of the PHEV.

We understand Mr. Wellinghoff’s enthusiasm for this concept, but in the real world, technology, testing and economics trump enthusiasm.

To begin with, Commissioner Wellinghoff’s contention that lithium-ion technology is ready for large-scale manufacture, distribution and use is, we believe, premature at best. We’d point to Mr. Watanabe’s remarks for support. Mr. Watanabe’s statement read, "Toyota will deliver its PHEVs as part of the acceleration of its global plug-in hybrid research and development program, scheduled to begin late next year."

This is a critical point. We are indeed going to equip our PHEVs with lithium-ion batteries, but that does not imply that we are prepared to pronounce them ready for retail release to our customers at-large. To ensure that we have the battery design and chemistry matched perfectly with the technology in the rest of the vehicle, we must, we are compelled, to perform extensive testing as part of an extended R&D program. That is exactly what Mr. Watanabe is saying. That has always been our position and intent, and it remains our position and intent.

Yes, we believe we are well on the road to having lithium-ion batteries figured out, but we won’t know until we build them in volume and use them under varying conditions. Only after we’ve done that can we measure their performance against pre-determined standards, and then evaluate whether they are ready for the marketplace and our Toyota customers.

The second part to the commissioner’s note involves a request to consider the vehicle-to-grid question, which he has raised previously on Open Road. Our answer now remains the same as it was then.

Our first priority is to continue developing our PHEV technology, and then, when the technology package is fully developed, get PHEVs into the hands of our customers. As previously noted, our expertise is in building motor vehicles, not in power generation, at least not today. 

That said, and as previously outlined, the challenges of Vehicle-to-Grid (or V2G, as it’s called) technology remain daunting. Here are just a few:

Under the V2G scenario, you’d just plug your car into a wall socket when you arrive home at night and bingo, you’re connected to the grid, using existing circuitry.  Unfortunately, the grid contribution from a single car, or even from the small numbers that will be put into the hands of fleet customers, would be insignificant. Meaningful V2G contributions will depend upon hundreds of thousands of vehicles all contributing electrical power in some yet-to-be-defined coordinated method.

How would the necessary infrastructure to collect the current from each PHEV and step it up to transmission and/or distribution voltage be created? We are unaware of any discussion concentrating upon this question, let alone a solution, or placing a cost on a solution.

If, as some pundits predict, oil prices go to $200 per barrel in the coming years, taking pump prices northward with them, how do we know that the PHEV owner will sacrifice his/her overall MPG by trading away a PHEV’s reserve battery power? Indeed, if gas were to rise to $5 per gallon, perhaps the PHEV driver would wish to utilize every last watt of power stored in the car’s batteries for personal consumption.

So the V2G question, while intriguing, isn’t simple. As I noted last time this issue was raised here on Open Road, we must not lose sight of Toyota’s immediate goal: the creation of an affordable, reliable PHEV that can be manufactured in large numbers, is serviceable at any dealership and meets the needs of the American driver. To help us do that, we’ll lease this first batch of PHEVs into the hands of fleet customers, evaluate them carefully and determine our next steps.

~ Contributed by Irv Miller, Group Vice President – Corporate Communications

Comments

[aaron]

There was mention that li ion batteries were dangerous and would be delayed as far as being introduces.

This was in august 2007 where it was stated safety concerns of batteries overheating or exploding would delay them a couple of years.

Has their been breakthroughs in the last few months ir was this report bogus?

thanks.

[LyleL]

Any chance that while Toyota would be doing the lease to commercial groups would also consider working with some willing individual consumer early adopters?

[David Moskovitz]

Irv

You neither ask nor answer what ought to be Toyota's first question: How much value does V2G provide to the grid and how much of that value can Toyota realize.

Toyota clearly knows the value of the hybrid as a function of the cost of gasoline. What do you really know about the value of it to the grid?

[Jon Wellinghoff]

Irv- I appreciate the time and effort you took to discuss the issues of V2G and Toyota's concerns regarding incorporating V2G technology into your consumer products. I recognize that Toyota does not have extensive expertise in V2G technology or electric grid systems and therefore may remain skeptical as to both the ease with which V2G can be incorporated into PHEVs and the ease with which benefits can be realized from V2G for Toyota, your customers, and the electric grid. So, in an effort for us all to move forward I would suggest a challenge to Toyota. I would challenge you to bring your best engineers working on V2G and come to a workshop at FERC during the first week of March to meet with V2G electrical power systems engineers and the University of Delaware's Dr. Willett Kempton and his V2G "MAGIC" research team. They will demonstrate for Toyota and other invited major auto manufacturers in real time the use of V2G by the electric grid in the Mid-Atlantic region under the control of the grid operator PJM. We will have available for your engineers V2G technical people including IT, systems engineers, power engineers, and V2G researchers. They will replicate a demonstration they performed at FERC on October 24th where a vehicle converted to an electric propulsion system was accessed remotely by the PJM Grid operator. That operator accessed the storage system of the vehicle, just like a generator, to provide regulation up and regulation down services for the PJM electric grid. Benefits to the grid are immediate and can scale linearly with each vehicle added. So there are benefits from the first vehicle interconnected. Also no transformers are required. Regulation up and regulation down services will be demonstrated with a standard 240 V plug from the vehicle. Also, regulation services need not deplete the battery charge in a manner that will leave the vehicle owner with a discharged battery. That issue can be addressed with simple software incorporated into the V2G hardware in the vehicle. On the grid side PJM can pay the vehcle owner for the regulation services. They already pay for similar services provided by demand response from customer loads. So the payment protocols, tariffs, and systems can easily be adapted to aggregated V2G enabled PHEVs. I know that you may not be familiar with grid regulation service, but it is the most expensive service currently offered and is required 24/7 to keep the grid in balance. Calculation of potential payments that could be made to V2G enabled PHEV owners by grid operators indicates that a vehicle owner could realize as much as $1,000 to $2,000 per year in payments from the grid operator for these services from a V2G enabled PHEV. So, Irv, what do you say? Is Toyota up for the challenge and willing to attend a V2G demonstration workshop at FERC in early March? If you are interested in bringing out your team for the demonstration workshop at FERC to see V2G in action and discuss V2G with the nation's experts please give me a call at (202) 502-6580 or email me at and I can provide you with the details of the workshop. I believe Toyota has much to lose if it allows competitors to take the lead in V2G enabling technology for PHEVs. That is why you have everything to gain by coming to the March V2G workshop so that Toyota can maintain its competitive edge. I look forward to hearing from you.

Jon Wellinghoff
Commissioner
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission

[Random Person]

I believe V2G is a solution looking for a problem. It seems Toyota does not even know the solution. The inverter will need to be synchronous (aka grid tie), exactly like the Sunny Boy/Fronius/Xantrex.

[Irv Miller]

Commissioner Wellinghoff, thanks for your perspective. We appreciate your offer and invitation. But I must underscore this - we are in the car business, not the electricity-generation business (yet). We will just have to agree to disagree on this one for the time being.

[Daniel Lake]

Although I have great respect for Toyota, I'm beginning to wonder why you are taking so long to bring out a true PHEV like the old RAV-4 EV that is still today going over 100 miles on a charge with NiMH batteries? GM is not going to keep their word with the Volt, so the market is open for Toyota. Please help save the world and get us off of oil before it is too late. Better yet, go all the way and eliminate the transmission, drive shaft, axels, and brake system by going with electric hub motors on the rear wheels and hydrostatic drive on the front wheels powered by a 1.3L diesel such as the one in the Opel Eco-5 Speedster that gets 113 mpg. Put this package in a high impact plastic/carbon fiber body to lower the weigh and you will have a world-class winner.

[Ricky]

i strongly agree that toyota should bring back the ae86 and it should be especially true to its rumors. its great that toyota is environment friendly. but toyota has also lost focus on its sport cars. what happened to the supra? the celica? all discontinued even when its customers keep these cars for years even after numerous owners.

[Derek Simon]

I would love to see the AE86 back in action, I sell cars at a toyota dealership in South Lake Tahoe, and more and more of my friends have been asking why toyta isint in the sports car market. If somebody wants an entry level sports car they must turn to subaru, mazda, mitsu, or nissan etc.. If toyota brought back the Corolla sprinter Trueno AE86 it would be an instant sales smash everywhere..

[Hayhurst]

I also think if toyota brought back the Supra, and made it as bullet proof as the 2JZ-GTE, people would want those more than the new GTR, the Supra's old nemesis! Also, toyota could bring over some of the "sportier" models from Japan, like the Vitz hatch, and even the Aygo Crazy, a euro concept would be an awesome new replacement for the MR2, both of which would still be pretty fuel efficient.

[hugo]

i also insist the old ae86 should come back i own a ae85 and i would never sell it

ps> is it gonna come out again? if it does make engine, parts compatible for the old models!

[Jared Smith]

if the '86 trueno does come back, please make sure it has a 4A-GZE in it not a weak er engine, if it were to hav a 4A-GZE in it parts would be applicable to the older AE85-86 model

[Norman]

Please address whether it is practical now to use an existing Toyota Prius in V2G mode to supply emergency short term home power when power is lost in situations like ice storms and hurricanes. What are the costs? Would it be legal? Does the vehicle have to be modified in any way. Would there be any damage to the batteries?